Science for Policy

Leire Rincón García on evidence, ideas, and the race for political attention

Politicians and lobbyists alike dream of the silver bullet: a single killer piece of scientific evidence that will change all our minds about future policymaking. But could any simple piece of evidence have the power to beat big ideas in public debate? And can evidence garner political attention even when the politicians don't go looking for it?

Dr Leire Rincón García's field research on the policy of Universal Basic Income seems to suggest that the answer is 'no'. In this episode, Dr Rincón and Toby Wardman together debate why parliamentarians were more likely to ignore emails that cited evidence, what could be done about it, and whether there is a defensible role for the 'activist scientist' in policy advice.

 

Resources mentioned in this episode

• The reverse silver bullet: https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/tpp/ep/2021/00000017/00000003/art00003;jsessionid=50s51rbqg6uec.x-ic-live-01

Jennifer Clapp on global food systems advice

One in three people in the world suffers from malnutrition of one form or another. The world's most prominent intergovernmental body for addressing this challenge, the UN Committee on World Food Security, has its own science advice service made up of experts from around the world.

In this episode, Professor Jennifer Clapp gives Toby Wardman a whirlwind tour of the High Level Panel of Experts on Food Security and Nutrition, the challenges of making policy in such a complex topic as global food systems, and what it's like to give high-profile science advice at a global level.

Resources mentioned in this episode

• Committee on World Food Security High-Level Panel of Experts: http://www.fao.org/cfs/cfs-hlpe 

Who‘s afraid of epistemic diversity?

In this special episode, twelve scholars of science advice discuss the challenges of incorporating a radically diverse range of perspectives into a science advice process. This conversation was recorded as part of the INGSA 2021 conference on global science advice, and is moderated by Estelle Balian.

Speakers in order of appearance

• Jacopo Torriti, Professor of Energy Economics and Policy, School of the Built Environment, University of Reading
• Tuula Teeri, President of the Royal Swedish Academy of Engineering Sciences, Chair of Euro-CASE
• Diana Ürge-Vorsatz, Professor, Department of Environmental Sciences and Policy Central European University, member of the IPCC and member of SAPEA energy working group
• Jennie Stephens, Director of the School of Public Policy and Urban Affairs and the Dean’s Professor of Sustainability Science and Policy, Northeastern University
• Thomas Bauwens, Senior Researcher and Lecturer at the Copernicus Institute of Sustainable Development, Utrecht University
• Clark Miller, Professor in the School for the Future of Innovation in Society and Director of the Center for Energy and Society, Arizona State University
• Alex Stingl, Centre for Interdisciplinary Methodologies, University of Warwick
• Katri Mäkinen-Rostedt, Tampere University
• Kristian Nielsen, Research Associate at the Cambridge Social Decision-Making Lab, Department of Psychology, University of Cambridge
• Yvan Dutil, Ministry of Health and Social Services, Québec
• Heather Douglas, philosopher of science, Michigan State University

Resources mentioned in this episode

• Original recording: www.sapea.info/epistemic-diversity

The original recording also includes remarks from Nebojsa Nakicenovic, Tom van Ierland, Sebastien Renaud and David Mair.

Kristian Krieger and Stijn Verleyen on mapping Europe‘s science advice landscape

When it comes to science advice infrastructure, Europe is far from a unified whole. That's why the European Commission's science service, the Joint Research Centre, set out to map the entire landscape, looking not only at European and national level but also digging into the way science influences policy within regions and even individual cities.

In this episode, Toby Wardman talks to Kristian Krieger and Stijn Verleyen, two of the JRC's project leaders in mapping and evaluating the science-for-policy landscape in Europe.

Resources discussed in this episode

• Science for policymaking workshops:

  https://knowledge4policy.ec.europa.eu/evidence-informed-policy-making_en

• Science meets parliaments and regions: https://ec.europa.eu/jrc/en/science-meets-parliamentscience-meets-regions

Piotr Magnuszewski and Nicole Arbour on games at the science-policy interface

How can policymakers really understand the nitty-gritty of a complex system and how their decisions can influence it? How can scientists get a handle on the many competing variables that policymakers must take into account alongside the scientific evidence? One idea is to throw both of them into a live simulation of the system they want to understand, and let them sink or swim.

In this episode, game designer Piotr Magnuszewski and science-policy expert Nicole Arbour chat with Toby Wardman of SAPEA to explore whether, and in what circumstances, games can be a useful form of science advice.

Resources mentioned in this episode

• Dennis Meadows's Fish Banks game: https://systemdynamics.org/products/fish-banks-game/
• Introduction to social simulations: https://socialsimulations.org/

Caroline Wagner on the internationalisation of science and policy

The world is more interconnected than ever, and global research is no exception. But when scientists work together across borders, who wins — and who, if anyone, loses? Should policymakers be concerned about 'leakage' of publicly-funded research? How is science advice impacted? And in a global knowledge community, is there any future for old-school concepts like science diplomacy?

Professor Caroline Wagner, author of 'The New Invisible College' and 'The Collaborative Era In Science', joins Toby Wardman of SAPEA to discuss the brave new world of cross-border science, and what, if anything, we can do about it.

Leonie Tanczer, María Jarquín and Natasha Boyd on diversity in science advice

Our two-part series focusing on students and early career researchers concludes today with a lively conversation about teaching, learning and scholarship. Dr Leonie Tanczer, the designer of a unique science advice course at University College London, joins two of her former students María Jarquín and Natasha Boyd to discuss how the field is seen through the eyes of students — with a particular focus on improving diversity in the science advice community.

 

=== Resources mentioned in this episode ===

- UCL blog post on diversity: https://blogs.ucl.ac.uk/steapp/2019/06/13/science-advice-diversity/

 

- McKinsey work on diversity mentioned by Natasha: https://www.mckinsey.com/featured-insights/diversity-and-inclusion/diversity-wins-interactive

 

- EScAPE project: https://escapecovid19.org/ 

Adriana Bankston on career moves from science to policy

Some scientists get involved with policy without giving up their day jobs. Others take their scientific training and move wholesale into the world of policy, taking up roles as advisors, analysts, knowledge brokers or advocates on specific issues.

In the first in a two-part series focusing on students and early-career researchers, Dr Adriana Bankston of the University of California shares her tips and experiences on leaving academia behind and joining the fast-paced world of policy.

David Budtz Pedersen on measuring the impact of science advice

Science, and especially social sciences and humanities, have always had a broad range of impacts on society — impacts which are not easily measured using traditional academic indicators. And engagement with policymakers is one of the trickiest areas to pin down: even when we know it's happening, finding ways to measure and evaluate it can be difficult.

In this episode, Professor David Budtz Pedersen of Aalborg University, Copenhagen, talks to Toby Wardman of SAPEA about ways to discover, strengthen and evaluate the impact of science advice in a fragmented landscape.

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Resources mentioned in this episode

Report on the Danish science advice ecosystem: https://bit.ly/3zGfLlR

Pia Kinhult on connecting policy with big science

When it's finished, the European Spallation Source in Sweden and Denmark will be the brightest neutron source in the world, opening up new frontiers for science in a broad range of fields. But building a giant facility like this takes decades of commitment from policymakers and scientists alike. In a political environment dominated by short-term thinking, how do we keep everyone on board to see this kind of project through to reality?

Pia Kinhult, Head of Host States Relations at the ESS and a former leading politician in Sweden, talks to Toby Wardman about keeping things sweet between science and policy at the frontier of world-changing — and expensive — materials science.

Resources mentioned in this episode

• European Spallation Source: https://europeanspallationsource.se/

Christina Moberg on the public role of academies

To coincide with the twentieth birthday of the European Academies' Science Advisory Council, their president Christina Moberg joins Toby Wardman to discuss the role of academies in advising policymakers, communicating with citizens, and contributing to society more generally.

We also discuss the history and role of EASAC, the new challenges of science advice post-COVID, and Nobel prizes.

Risto Nieminen and Jaakko Kuosmanen on inventing a new science advice system

What happens when your country needs a new science advice system, but all you have is a blank sheet of paper and a mandate to experiment?

The Finnish Academy of Science and Letters set out in 2019 to reinvent science advice with their Sofi project. Two years later, the project is about to become a permanent fixture, and its principal architects Jaakko Kuosmanen and Risto Nieminen talk to Toby Wardman about what worked, what didn't, and how to tell the difference.

Jan Marco Müller on science advice for diplomats

How much political appetite is there for science advice to foreign policy — and how much impact does it have? What are the differences between advising ministers and advising diplomats? What does the phrase 'science diplomacy' actually mean?

Jan Marco Müller discusses these questions with Toby Wardman of SAPEA. We also discuss how to develop advice demand as well as supply, the geopolitics of Russia's vaccine policy, and navigating centuries of accumulated jargon in the international relations sphere.

George Griffin on the science and policy of COVID vaccination

How do the COVID vaccines work? How do we prioritise recipients? What are the major decisions facing policymakers when executing a mass vaccination campaign -- and where can science help to advise them?

George Griffin discusses these questions with Toby Wardman of SAPEA. We also discuss how to get jabs to developing countries, the origins of the anti-vax movement, and whether we should be worried about rare blood clots.

Special thanks to Rúben Castro for technical help in producing this episode.

Natasha Gardiner on science for policy in Antarctica

How is Antarctica governed, and why do scientists play such a key role in running it? What science advice structures exist to advise Antarctic decision-makers, and how do they function? Can the whole science-as-governance system, designed in the 1950s, survive into the 21st century?

Natasha Gardiner discusses these questions with Toby Wardman of SAPEA. We also discuss decision-making deadlock, saving seals, and how to start a new human colony on one of Saturn's moons.

Resources discussed in this episode

• Scientific Committee on Antarctic Research: https://www.scar.org/policy/science-policy/
• Committee for Environmental Protection: https://www.ats.aq/e/committee.html

Roger Pielke Jr on shadow science advice

Can unofficial or self-appointed science advice structures be valuable, or are they destabilising? What responsibilities does a science advisor have when they disagree with the consensus view? What's going wrong, if anything, when a politician picks up the phone and calls their own favourite scientist for input?

Roger Pielke Jr discusses these questions with Toby Wardman of SAPEA. We also discuss the dubious wisdom of electing your commander-in-chief, asking your friend to give you brain surgery, and channeling the dark side of the force.

Tracey Brown on data modelling in policy advice

How widespread is the use of big data in government decision-making? What questions should policymakers ask when presented with policy recommendations based on data modelling? Should opaque models based on machine-learning algorithms come with a health warning?

Tracey Brown discusses these questions with Toby Wardman of SAPEA. We also discuss spurious precision in scientific results, whether US election pollsters got it right or wrong, and the psychology of ordering wine.

Resources discussed in this episode

Sense About Science guide to data science: https://wordpress-398250-1278369.cloudwaysapps.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/SaS-DataScienceGuide-V8-SinglePages.pdf

Fred Fenter and Stephan Kuster on the scientific community's response to COVID-19

What does the worldwide scientific community think of how science advice was used in 2020? What impact have lockdown, home-working and the race for a vaccine had on the life and work of individual scientists? Have other areas of science-related policy, such as climate change, been boosted or sidelined since COVID?

Fred Fenter and Stephan Kuster discuss these questions with Toby Wardman of SAPEA. We also discuss whether a worldwide crisis helps or hinders the cause of open access publishing, whether it has made the scientific community more connected or more disjointed, and why giving public science advice is a risky and often thankless task.

Resources mentioned in this episode

• Research paper on the academic response to COVID-19: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpubh.2020.621563/full

Pieter Duisenberg, Liesbeth Hulst and Joost Sneller on science in the Dutch parliament

The Dutch parliament is trialling a new, radical way to take advice from scientists on every draft law that comes before it. How legally robust is it? What are the risks for scientists of getting involved in the cut and thrust of parliamentary debate, and for politicians of inviting professors to "mark their homework"?

Pieter Duisenberg, Joost Sneller and Dr Liesbeth Hulst talk to Toby Wardman of SAPEA about the new science advice mechanism in the parliament of the Netherlands. They also discuss upstream effects of downstream policy changes, the challenges of building a bridge between worlds, and whether such a scheme could be replicated elsewhere.

Paul Nurse, Peter Piot and Christiane Woopen on ethics and multidisciplinarity

Why is multidisciplinary science advice so difficult, and are there ways to make it easier? Should policymakers seek ethics advice as well as science advice? When there is a conflict between the values embedded in different cultural contexts, how can we navigate the conflict sensitively?

Christiane Woopen, Paul Nurse and Peter Piot discuss these questions with Toby Wardman of SAPEA. We also discuss the unique challenges of giving advice in a crisis, the relationship between ‘discovery’ and applied science, and whether Rambo would make a good government advisor.

Resources discussed in this episode

• Joint statement on scientific advice during COVID-19: https://op.europa.eu/en/publication-detail/-/publication/346c8eaf-ba79-11ea-811c-01aa75ed71a1/language-en/format-PDF/source-139601691
• Joint opinion on improving pandemic preparedness and management: https://op.europa.eu/en/publication-detail/-/publication/a1016d77-2562-11eb-9d7e-01aa75ed71a1/language-en/format-PDF/source-171481573

Miriam Frankel on how journalists report science advice

What makes science journalism a tough job? How should the media handle the complexities of science advice systems, especially during a pandemic? And when science advice, political controversy and public health get tangled up together, is a journalist the right person to try and unpick them?

Miriam Frankel discusses these questions with Toby Wardman of SAPEA. We also discuss how not to accidentally amplify fringe scientists, how to coach science advisors to talk to the public, and whether non-specialist readers really care about anything beyond just black holes and dinosaurs.

Resources mentioned in this episode

• The Conversation: https://theconversation.com/

Florian Süssenguth on advising Chancellor Merkel

How does Angela Merkel’s confidential science and innovation advisory group function? When can industry stakeholders play a role in science advice, and what are the benefits and challenges when they do?

Florian Süssenguth discusses these questions with Toby Wardman of SAPEA. We also discuss the difficulty of measuring impact, science advice in the post-Merkel future, and what innovation actually means anyway.

Resources mentioned in this episode

• Innovation Dialogue: https://www.acatech.de/projekt/innovationsdialog-zwischen-bundesregierung-wirtschaft-und-wissenschaft/

Erin Macdonald on being Star Trek's science advisor

** Note to listeners: The version of this episode first published on Christmas Day included a minor editing error around minute 40 (a few moments of silence). A corrected version was published on 4 January. If your podcast app had downloaded the episode before that date, but you haven't yet listened to it, you may wish to delete and re-download the episode so you have the corrected version. Apologies for the inconvenience! **

What joint challenges are faced by policy advisors and TV advisors? Why would a committed scientist make the switch from basic research to the entertainment industry? How serious is Star Trek about 'getting the science right'?

Dr Erin Macdonald discusses these questions with Toby Wardman of SAPEA. We also discuss the nature of gene transfer in tardigrades, whether it’s wise to step into the transporter, and how to solve the Heisenberg uncertainty principle in one easy step.

Antonio Loprieno on the history and future of knowledge

How is the nature of knowledge changing? What is the impact of the digital revolution on the roles of universities, academies and science advisors? Is democratisation of knowledge always a good thing?

Professor Antonio Loprieno discusses these questions with Toby Wardman of SAPEA. We also discuss how to digitally unwrap an Egyptian mummy, whether there is such a thing as objective truth, and how loudly Toby can scream when his audio is muted.

Cathrine Holst on reasons to mistrust experts

Is there a fundamental tension between democracy and expertise? How can non-experts evaluate experts? When we design science advice systems, should we prioritise independence or interdependence?

Professor Cathrine Holst discusses these questions with Toby Wardman of SAPEA. We also discuss techniques to reduce human error in science advice, how to pronounce awkward acronyms, and whether populism is the chicken or the egg.

Resources discussed in this episode

• The PERITIA project on trust in expertise: https://peritia-trust.eu/